Bonus: Running Through Recovery - Overcoming Injuries with Inspiration and Endurance with Michelle Edwards and John Stephenson

Welcome to the Start Line, a podcast about running, eating, life and everything in between. Hi to yourself, family. It's Jules flying solo this week to introduce another fantastic episode from our bonus series, recorded live from the national running show at the NEC, birmingham last month, and we have had an amazing time listening to the episode so far. I have to say I almost feel like I was in the audience, listening rather than participating in the interviews. One thing is for sure, and that is the last episode made me so excited about the ultra journey that I'm going to have later this year. So massive thank you again to Dina and to Taz for sharing all your wisdom. I know we're not the only ones who will have gotten a lot out of the last episode, and if you haven't had a chance to listen yet, we really do urge you to go back and listen. In fact, you should catch up on all of the episodes from the national running show so far, because they are amazing and we've got lots of fantastic running advice and tips. Today's episode is going to be packed with some really really great advice as well, and it's an episode that's really close. It was really close to Dee's heart when she was pulling together the subjects for the ERC conversations. She was really keen to have a conversation around injuries. She's been off running for the last two years because of sciatica and one of the things that she really wanted to explore with this conversation was just how you continue to be enthusiastic about running when you're not able to actually physically participate in the sport. So we were really really grateful to have John and Michelle from ERC come and talk about their experiences of being injured and how they've managed to cope, both physically and mentally, with the challenges of not being able to run or move as they may have previously been able to do before injury, and really appreciated having that conversation, because I know that when I was injured throughout 2020 and 2021, it was a really challenging time for me. I had some serious FOMO watching all the other ERC members and runners out there getting their medals and just not being able to participate. In the same way, I know there's lots of people out there who feel really excluded when they can't run. So I thought it was really important to have a conversation around that subject, and I think one of the things that it was really good to kind of focus on was reminding people that there is light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to injury. You're not going to be injured forever and there are other things that you can do to still feel part of the running community, such as volunteering or even just getting involved in other activities. Like D over the last year has been learning how to swim and cycle, and it's really a great chance. You know it's really good if you can take the chance during a period of injury to explore other things that you can do, other sports or activities that you have time to participate in due to your injury. It was great to be able to explore that conversation with John and Michelle. One of the things that was really great as well was just to hear how Michelle came back from injury. Last year, when we all travelled to Atlanta, the ELC crew took a road trip to Atlanta to participate in the race and you will remember that we had an episode with Race Director Tess at the I think middle of 2021, so scroll back and find the episode. I'll drop a link in the in the show notes so you can find it easily. But yeah, michelle came back after not having done a race, being off with her Achilles issue, and won a medal for. Anyway, she'll tell you about it in the episode. But, yeah, it was just incredible, and we're also looking forward to seeing John this year, who is going to walk and run the London Marathon in April. So, yeah, it's just a really good reminder that you know if you are injured, don't think you're at the end of the road. There is always light at the end of the tunnel. So I think we should get into the conversation now, but I should, as I always do, remind you to follow the Startline podcast and Apple Podcasts, spotify, all your major podcast platforms. If you follow us, it will make sure that you don't miss an episode. So please do and also share the podcast. If you like what you hear and you think someone else might like it, please share it, because that helps people to find us, and also leave a review on our podcast if you like what you hear as well. We'd like to take five stars and above. Yeah, anyway, I think it's time to get into the conversation. We'll see you next episode.

So this morning we have the pleasure of having Michelle Edwards and John Stevenson no relation to me and Jaws and they're going to be discussing coping with injury and or coping through injury and how, as runners, you cope mentally and physically with a challenge of being injured and what you do as a result how you cope with that. So if I can get Michelle first to introduce herself and then I'll ask John to introduce himself, so my name is Michelle Edwards and I am a runner, I guess, and I've not been running very long actually.

So I did my first marathon in 2012 but haven't really run very much since that. But in the last two to three years I've been running much more than I probably would have done before, and maybe Covid was a catalyst for that. Not quite sure, but definitely being part of the group has accelerated my need to run. So we'll say and John.

Hello, good morning. My name is John Stevenson. As Dee said, no relation to the Stevenson's, but we're quite a big clan. My running journey I used to be quite active in sport, so back in the day we're talking about going back a good 20-25 years I used to run. I used to play football I originally was a dancer, so I was quite flexible but then I got into football, which is a different set of muscles, and I used to do a lot of running for that. And in 2014, one of the founders, children Gordon, invited me to be part of the Comet Relief Run, so we used to do five and ten k's. But that's about it. In my running journey, I was in a car accident, so I stopped running because I'm the advisor for my doctors, so I'll go into that more later. But in terms of my running journey, now I'm more of a worker, so I just want to advocate walking. It's good exercise as well, so I'm doing a lot of walking, which I'll cover in what we're going to talk about later. So that's me in a nutshell.

Okay, thank you. So just to kind of touch on your injuries, Michelle, you've been injured a few times over the years. How can you talk us through the injuries that you've suffered and how you've kind of coped with those?

So I've always been quite an athlete, naturally. So I've had injuries. I've played netball, I've had injuries and always come back from nose. I've had injuries. So when I was training for the marathon London marathon about six weeks from running the London marathon, I got injured running down Annerley Hill If anyone knows Crystal Palace, it's running down Annerley Hill and got injured running down on I think it was like a 15 mile run. I got injured running down Annerley Hill and that was probably the very first time that I was having an injury, given that there was something I really wanted to do in six weeks time that an injury really impacted me. So I'm like, oh my god, how am I going to finish, get about, do this London marathon, because I'm not not doing it with this injury. So it's kind of mind over matter. Really, you've got to decide that actually that's what I really want to do. So when to physio, my physio said I'm only going to be able to get you fit for about 15 miles of the marathon. So I was like, okay, I'll take it, because I might do better than 15 miles. So I got to 15 miles doing London and actually it didn't hurt. So I was like, oh, I'm good, I can run the whole thing. But then I got to 19 miles and I was like, oh, this is what she was talking about the pain. So the pain came at 19 miles and then I saw Marsha and Jan raising goodbye and then it hurt a lot so I managed to finish it. But then I decided, actually, if I can do that, I fucking run through pain, I can run through, I can finish the marathon. Then there's actually pretty much nothing I can't do. So with all of my injuries I've had, it's only a moment, it's a moment in time that you can't do something and actually, if you can just get yourself for that moment, once, a bit of time, we'll be back to your normal fitness how about you, john?

um, well, like I said in my introduction, I was quite an active person. I used to go to the gym um play five a side, play football 11 a side on a Sunday, until I had a car accident and in that accident I damaged my left, not my right pelvis. I had a tilt on my pelvis. So from there I was advised that I should not be doing the pounding, the running and those sort of things, but I continued anyway because I was a lot younger. And then and then I had another accident in another car accident in 2010, and I think that's what really did the damage mentally. I think it was more of a mental thing for me because my body was telling me something completely different to my head, because she was always so active. And so you fall and you're young, you think you can just do anything, and it's only later it catches up with you. So you just have to rethink what you're doing. So, in terms of playing football, I wasn't playing football anymore, but I still was going to the gym. I was still doing working out, trying to do strengthening exercises for your legs and things like that. But, like I said, I think what changed for me after that was promo, um, wanting to do something, seeing other people doing it and thinking I used to do this, what's going on? I really want to be able to do it again. So I think, pushing, like you said, pushing through the pain I think that for me it was managing the pain, because I'm not a great believer in taking tablets and doing all this other things, but occasionally, having a painkiller and doing something, it's like, oh, this isn't too bad not that I was high on any medication or anything like that, because it wasn't at that level but it was like ibuproofen, something to get rid of the inflammation. But once you can change your mind to try and get over things, you push your body a little bit more, and that's what I'm currently doing at the moment. So, and I'm like Michelle, it's like take my hat off to everybody who's done the marathon, because I know it's not easy, but I've signed up for the London marathon. Um, this year, um, I'm hoping, no, I'm gonna finish it. Come hell or high water, I will finish it because that's the task that I've set myself. And someone's always said exercise or any time is a gift to yourself. So my present for myself this year is complete in the London marathon well done, well done amazing and I think um

you touched upon something there that we do want to come back to, which is the mental challenges. Whilst you're injured, um, not only feeling, not only that FOMO feeling, but that feeling that you have in yourself are damn. Like Michelle, you've just recently gone through this, so can you tell us what you've been through and how that impacted you mentally? Uh, so I have I've.

I've actually got Achilles problems at the moment and so my Achilles problems probably never really go away. So I managed to work my way through my Achilles problem to run the hard marathon last year in Atlanta.

I managed to do that just, and you got, and you got a medal can you say a medal for what Joel for in her age category coming first well, actually that's a correction.

I had to correct that I came second I lost by five seconds. I've just been clear. Just keep it in real. I lost by five seconds, but I've known who that woman was anyway, so first an e-tect.

This was a race with 1700 people about that so yeah, people yes and you did get on a plane and I did get on a plane and Atlanta is a is a city of runners you know no, yes, all of that

all of that okay but I still came second and lost by five seconds, because I'm not competitive in any way at all at all and so that that for me. So we're having to do the training for that because I so we're like. So I should go back to the beginning. When I signed up for that race, I think I was injured with my keys at the time so I didn't know if I could run the race in October. So I left in January last year and the time I put, the time I put down in January, was two hours and 45 minutes because I thought I've got no clue if I can do this. So because my key this is quite bad, I'll just I'll put them two hours and 45 minutes because there's no pressure. Then I can definitely do it in two hours 45. If I do it faster, that's great. So I did the training train, did the run, managed to do in two hours and five minutes. So I managed to do it in two hours and five, which was much better than the two hours 45 what just a little bit yeah, and, and that race was great and it had no pain, no pain whatsoever, so it was really. It was good to run that race. And also the other good thing about running that race it was a race for black and brown people, so, which was even better so. I had no expectations in that race, just that I really wanted to finish it. So I was going to do the training. All I needed to do was finish.

But yeah, the time wasn't so bad, just in terms of FOMO and and kind of feeling like committing out. Obviously you're both part of the emancipated run crew community. Do you find that helps in kind of supporting your injury journey or does it hinder in terms of increasing your feeling of missing out?

I'll be 100% honest, it's a bit of both. The second part is the FOMO which is I want to do this. I know mentally and physically there's questions about doing it, but seeing everybody else do it pushes you to want to do it yourself. So, and having the support, reading things about other people's injuries and what they've done and what they've taken and bits to try and help them, gives me confidence that I have a support network and what I realized from the emancipated run crew is that where to be seen, to be held and to be yeah, and this is what the community provides for me. So the fact that I've signed up to do the London marathon is testament to a challenge for myself, but knowing that I have the support of my community and the drive and determination that I've seen over the years, from seeing three people what three years ago do it nine people, the next year 13 people sorry, 15 people last year and then 43 members doing it in 2024. And, like I said, I'm planning to walk and run, but mainly walk with a team of walkers, and they're all people who have walked the marathon before. So my thing is trying to walk or complete it, but make sure I do it within the time that I can finish through the correct finish line. So that's what I'm saying to myself, because I don't want to be pushed to the side. I want to go through what everybody else feels when you cross that finish line, and that's what I'm looking forward to.

Can I just ask we done a. When you first got injured, did you continue with your activity as in? Did you still try to run or walk instead of resting, or did you just try and push? Because I know what. I know what I've done in the past and I know I still do it. What did you do?

I'm actually quite disciplined. So if I'm injured, I'm injured, so I won't try and run on an injury if I know that I can't run on an injury, because I also know that you're just going to make it worse and the goal is to get back to being fit again. So actually the discipline of not doing it is hard, because actually all you ever want to do is do it and especially if you're watching people run as well and you can hear, and if you're in the group you just get the constant pinging and actually the constant pinging can be really annoying. Let's just be honest and therefore, if you've got to be mentally strong to know, right, I'm just not going to run because I can't do this right now and therefore I'm just going to get myself back to running so that I can actually achieve what I want to achieve. So you almost have to be really single minded when you're injured so weird thing. But you have to be single minded when you're injured because actually it is all about you, because if you can't run, you can't run. Everyone else can run, but you can't. So if you really want to be running, then you're going to have to do the work to get yourself back to running. And that's a really hard thing to almost accept, because you're going to have to sit back and watch everyone else run.

For me, I think it's the case of um. I know I'm not going to be able to run a full marathon as in my mind because I'm not a runner now. So I've, kind of um said I can walk and run. I think, speaking to myself 20 years ago, it's like I know most of us in ERC, we're of a certain age, we're over a certain age, so we've gone past that 20 something where you just get up and do something and then you don't even feel the pain. But for me my mind is still like a 20.

But my body is something different, so now I have to think I need to protect my body a bit more.

My mind is saying just go ahead and do it, it's fun enough, I can go out and I can party for three days now it's my big old, 58 year old self. But it asks me to go and do an hour's worth of running. That's a different mindset. So I need to literally say, well, if I can go and party for nine hours, why can't I run a marathon? So it's just literally focusing and thinking, when you're going and you're relaxing, you can enjoy yourself. You can put nine hours into dancing non-stop and I've got on my watch telling me how many floors I've climbed for nine hours dancing in a club. It's just thinking, if I can do that, I should be able to focus my mind, put some training in, because I don't. I've never really trained for anything, so the furthest I've actually run and that was by default, which was Aura Wolf, was the big half recently and that's because I plan to do the 5k relay, but then one of our members needed our support so we walked the rest of the pulse with her, so I ended up doing the whole of the course. I think it worked out to 18. Whatever age, but on my app it tells me I've completed my first half marathon and I had no intention of doing it so sometimes it's the surprise you give to yourself that mentally you didn't expect to do that yeah but you push yourself that little bit more to complete, and that's what I'm hoping to do fantastic.

Are there any times where you felt quite isolated, though, during your injury? Yeah, yeah, and how did you cope with that?

I've not been funny. Most times I go and pamper myself, so I'm a great lover of I will go to the gym. But I will go to the gym, go to the sauna in the steam room that's why he has good skin that's probably why I look.

I don't look 50 age, but yeah inside.

I don't know what my insides look like, but yeah, my liver is like telling me some stories at the moment, but yeah, so I will do other things and, like I said, I volunteer. So part of being in the ERC is you're volunteering. So although you can't physically do something, there's other things you can bring to the table and I think anyone within the crew knows I'm quite passionate about what we do and, yes, I might not be able to run, but I can support, I can be part of the management team and do other things which enables me to still be a field part of the participation.

Yeah, yeah me. Should you had any feelings of isolation?

probably not, actually, if I'm honest, because mentally I've decided that actually, I'm quite sure mentally. So I've decided well, actually, if I've got to do this and it's just me doing it, so and that's okay. And because actually, when I'm running the race, when I'm running, it might, as we run as a community, you also run alone. So it's all about me getting myself but it sounds selfish, but it's all about getting me back to my fitness and then and I'm naturally quite competitive so I'll do the work to get myself back up to that fitness and I'll do that alone.

I'm not quite surprised. Actually, you surprised me really.

It's like she's a she's a dark horse yeah, it was dark horse.

It was like, especially in Atlanta, because I'm not even. You didn't see that coming, I'm more immersed in ERC and attending more events now than I was before, so I would see it from afar. So when you actually see people that you know, not know what they're capable of it's, it's that feeling of pride. So, even though it's isolating because you're not there doing it, I'm so proud of what I see everybody else doing and that gives me the motivation, the inspiration to do something, because the impact that you have, or other people within the community has on other members or people who are not signed up to be part of our community, is amazing. And it's those little your own personal battles your own personal journey inspires others, and that's what really gets me so.

I can live off someone else's glory because I'm really doing celebrate and enjoy it.

And it's, yeah, you can see on my face. So yeah, that you can see on the podcast.

But you can see my face I'm smiling teeth so we've touched a few times upon the fact that we're getting older, your body's changing, you're facing injuries. You probably aren't able to run the speeds or the distances that you used to. How do you manage that? The changes in your body, your abilities? How do you manage that mentally? Now, no, michelle will be like no, no, no, it's fine, I've got it already.

No, do you know what? If I'm honest, how do I answer that question? I guess I'm not sure. I'm sure there are changes, but I'm not sure I've noticed them. Does that make sense? Yes, Because I still run around the same times. So I'm not sure why that is, and I have no doubt in the next five to six years that's absolutely going to change. So I'm going to be running much slower, but at the moment I kind of run as I've always run. So I'm not sure there's been a change, but I know the change is going to come. I feel like there's a song in there.

I was just thinking back to when I was running, and this is the bit that really annoys me sometimes, because my fastest 10K was 49 minutes.

Wow, wow.

And my last 10K where I was not my 100% was at the Fulham in 2017. That was an hour and six minutes. So that's me coming back. So in my mind I'm still telling myself I can still run at that, but I now know I can't, so it's like just getting to grips with. It's a different way. So long as I'm moving, so long as I'm actually doing something, then that will help. So if it takes me five, six hours to do the London marathon, then I've never done it before, so I have nothing to measure it against.

So for me that will be a gold medal so long as I complete it. Wonderful, just in terms of how you trained before your injuries and how you've approached training after your injuries. Are there any differences and what would you recommend for someone who's coming back from injury in terms of their approach? Do you want to go?

for it. John's tapping his six pack.

I'm just pressing my stomach here. There are some differences.

Yeah, when I used to train because I used to be running gym football I was just always doing exercise, so I never thought about the clothes I was wearing and things like that. So I've got a whole new wardrobe now of lycra and elasticated base bands that I never used to have, so my ultimate goal is to get my fitness back, but for me at the moment, I'm focusing on my breathing, which is really strange because I never used to focus on my breathing. So now I'm on the treadmill, I am literally working out how much oxygen I can get into my lungs, because before I never used to worry about it I could run around 90 minutes on a football pitch and, yes, you'll be coughing up a little bit at the end, but you'll be doing it every week, so you're used to it. Now for me it's like, because I'm preparing myself for this event in April, I am working out my breathing techniques, which then I'm trying to get my continuous pace on the treadmill, which is my comfortable pace, and making sure my heart rate is between, which are things that I would never have thought about before. But now I'm thinking about my heart rate needs to be between 123 and maybe 130. Then I'm running at an even pace, I'm not stressing myself and if I need to increase it, then I will increase it and then I try and decrease it and see how quick my body gets back and my heart rate goes back to those figures. So that's why I'm doing that at the moment whether it's going to do me any good or not, but that's why I'm doing it in the gym at the moment.

So I think the key thing about training after an injury is knowing that actually you can't do the same thing you could do before the injury Because you can't. You've lost some of that fitness. You've got to get the injury back up working. So you have to take it one step at a time. So you need to meet your body where your body is at at the point in time that you start training. So for me, if I've been injured, so the way that I managed it when I was training for the half marathon was I only ran 2K a day. So I ran 2K and I increased my distance each week. So I try and run it faster and faster. So if I can build up the speed in doing a short distance, mentally for me that meant well, actually, if I can, then if I slow down my pace I can run a longer distance, and so that's how I managed to get myself back into fitness slowly, slowly. So I didn't. I could have run half marathon before, but I know I couldn't get straight back out and run 13 might die. So, one step at a time, and don't push your body more than your body can be pushed, because you really have to, and even as you get older, you really have to listen to what your body is telling you. So if you could run 4 days, 4 days a week, but actually can I run 3 days a week, then run 3 days a week.

I was just going to say about this. There's things that I never used to do, like football, you do a warm up and you do the stretching and stuff like that, but running, I never used to do any of that.

I would just rock up. That's what I was going to ask.

But now my mindset is no, I need to do the warm up, I need to stretch, I need to warm down, and there's things that are lessons that I'm learning. Now was before, like I said, my 20 year old self you just rock up and do it and then what? No pain, just carry on again. But now I'm managing that more so all the way through doing my spurt.

I've always been taught you have to warm up, have to warm down. That's how you get your injuries. So you've got to stretch. But what I didn't realise when I ran the marathon the first time is all the work that you have to do in between the running. So it's not just about running.

You've got to do the squirrel strength.

You've got to work on your achilles, strength your calves, everything, because actually all those things break down and unless you make those stronger, you're not going to run as long.

And the nutrition. So there's things like diet, rest, all the things that, like I said, when you were younger self, you took for granted. Now me being myself a little bit overweight, so now I have to factor that into part of my training is what I eat, making sure I sleep, making sure I take on some of the nutrition that I need.

And I think we also recognise that rest days are equally as important as run days. Don't underestimate your rest days, apart from the fact that you're like, yes, I know we're going to run today, but your body actually moves the rest days.

I was going to throw in. One other thing which I found useful for myself as I sit here in injury is diversifying my training, or diversifying my movement, should I say so? Rather than running all the time, you're swimming, you're cycling. It's changing it up and I think I was saying to somebody early in the week that I did a run the other day I can't remember which one it was, but it was after I was doing my swim lessons and after I was doing my cycling lessons and I found that I was going faster and further and I didn't feel tired and I was thinking I haven't run in ages but I feel much better than I did before I got injured. There's something in that about changing up your routine so that it's not just running and also strength training. I can't say how important strength training is. You've got to get that strength and conditioning in your program when you're training for your marathon to a long run.

This is really good for actually making sure you're stretching all your muscles, getting those knots out, and also, I would also say, get massages if you can.

I was going to ask you about that.

Because massages really do work and what you don't realise is all of the knots that you have in your body. From running, I mean even your calves, deep into your calves, you can get massive knots in there and that actually impacts everything, like your Achilles, the whole lot. So it's really important to look after your body, particularly as you're getting older, but just in general, to actually treat it like it needs to be treated. That's all you've got, so you need to try and at least make sure you look after it.

We've got Humphrey Neymar sitting in front of us, who's our math and guru and all things, and he would say get a massage gun, get a foam roller and make sure you use that every time after you come back from Iran.

I think also certain things like lifestyle and what's going on in your life, because we're all busy people and we go to work and we do these other bits and it's about trying to cope with stress, mental health, well-being. That all factors into how you feel. So for me, I try and not sweat the small stuff. So, as things. I think, well, just let it wash over you. If you take that on board, that's something else to add to whatever you're going on for and that can pinder your recovery from any injury as well. So I try not to stress myself out about those things. So the massage gun brilliant.

Going for saunas, those sort of things that helps me relax.

It takes away that level of stress sometimes you have, which could also impact on your recovery from injury.

We're finishing off with some myth busters. So you'd be younger or you'd hear of certain things that you shouldn't do. Think about what you've been told that you shouldn't do, and how have you busted those myths? Oh gosh, that's a good question. So, for example, if you're injured, you must just sit out completely and do it. So how have you counted some of those? And that's myths for you.

So I think if you are injured, it doesn't mean you can't do anything. So you can do things that isolate your injuries, so that don't actually impact your injuries. So, for example, with my ankle injury, I don't run at the moment because I'm injured. So I do yoga and I do strength training at the moment, but what I don't do are the things that actually would mean I put weight on my ankle. So that means my body is still being conditioned, because by July I'm convinced I'm going to have the body of a goddess.

You already have the body of a goddess.

Thank you very much. I'm going to look even better. So you've got to do all those things because when you get back to running you don't want to start from scratch. So as much as you are starting from scratch, but you want your body to be ready to do the run, so you do need to do all those things in between.

If you can't think of anything don't worry, no, I can't really.

One thing I would say is being part of the Emancipation Run crew and seeing what's in the group, what's being posted, like Roy brother from the US, who's one of our members and is his plank challenge and the other bits that you can do. So, even though you're injured and you might be because of my lower back there's things that I could do that I can see other people doing, like the plank challenge and strengthening exercises For me. I've been working on my breathing to try and improve my lung capacity, so things like that. They're the other bits that you can do which isn't really related to your direct injury. So, like I said, the core workouts and the bits that I see I haven't done yoga, so it might be something that I may have to challenge myself to do you put the damadog, damadog. I'm not going to say something there, but I'm not going to. There are sort of things that you're open to other new ideas and you see other people doing it which, like I said, it, motivates and encourages you to try different things and. I'm one that I will try something new if it's going to benefit me Brilliant.

So we've got a wonderful audience here with us today, so we're taking audience questions. So if anyone has any questions of our panels panelists, sorry, please put your hand up Any questions. Yes, can you say your name and then ask your question? Yeah, mark, how often?

do you suggest having massages?

That might be one for Humphrey, or, but he's not on the panel.

I would say at least once a month. I think you should have a massage. But just because your body builds up so much acylactic acid and all those things that you just probably don't, you can't get rid of and also there are not, so you just can't get to yourself that you need somebody to kind of lead out for you.

I was going to say, if it's not, At least I think once a month. Having a physical massage by someone doing it, then having a massage gun is also something where you can do that the rollers and bits and pieces is also a form of massage. So if recently I would say that I'm using the roller, now because I've got on my knee here a vibrating roller, but I might have to get one of those, because the one I've got is just a solid roller. But I've recently getting some pain on my left knee, but I know it's because I haven't really been doing as much. So the stretching, the rolling that out helps. But that's not having someone physically come in and massage me. But yeah, I'm open to having that anytime. But at the moment I tend to do the deems, the saunas, which for me is also a way of cleansing the body as well.

Getting those what I would do is, I say, everybody's different. So I might be fine with the massage once a month, but your body might be a little bit tighter, so just go with how your body feels. But professional athletes have them like every day after their training, so there's something in that, yeah.

So I was going to say if you find a good sports misuse, they will kind of recommend how often you should come as well. So obviously there's a cost attached to that. So you have to think about whether that's viable for you. Which is when things like foam rolling comes in. And having a massage gun to keep you topped up in between your massages really helps. But your massage therapist usually will say I'd recommend, on the basis of how you feel, maybe come back in two weeks or a month is fine, but top up with a massage gun in between. Any other questions? Pat Cummings, farm rolling would you recommend after every run? If you can, then yes, I'd say for about at least 15-20 minutes. I would. But Humphrey, what would you say? 15-20 minutes on a foam roller?

You basically start off on your calves and go from your calves to your hamstrings, goes to glutes. Do about two minutes in each section and, if you can roll me back as well, but the idea is, after each one just loosen off the muscles and also start removing basically the fascia of your tube tightened up during the run. So after every run definitely.

I'm just thinking I might need it as I'm running around the London mountain. So if there's a Humphrey on the side massaging me to help me finish. Then I might be using that as well.

Any other questions from the audience? Oh yes, it's me again. Which foam roller would you recommend? The Handel one or the Humphries? Have already looked into it. I think it's recommended the Reviber foam roller, which is $39.99 on revibercouk. This is not a sponsored message. It's the one that I match. I'm gonna get it. Yeah, do you want to share with this gentleman here? Thank you, whilst we pass that around, would anyone else have any questions for the audience? Yes, can you say your name and then ask your question?

My name is Paul and it's just about regarding shoes, running shoes and what type of shoes to choose for a marathon.

Okay. So I think, no, I'm not. I'm your expert on shoes, the best thing you should do is go to a shop like Run Become, which is in London. If you're in London, run Become is recommended a lot by our runners. All runners need Get your gate analyzed so they'll do a gate analysis on you. So at runners' needs they'll do it on a treadmill to analyze how your foot actually falls on the pavement. So some people pronate, some people supernate, which means you either fall on the outside of your foot, strikes on the outside or the inside. Some people mid-strike in the middle so that it can be quite neutral. But all running brands have shoes that are tailored towards your actual gate. But don't just go on a website, look at the prettier shoes and buy those, because that's going to be a high-rote injury. Get your gate analyzed and the shop will recommend which type of running shoe is best for the way you run.

And that might not be the most expensive shoe.

And it usually isn't the prettiest shoe either.

Yes, and also not the prettiest, but it's about making sure that you can get round and your feet are protected, so always go with what they tell you.

And I think that that's an important issue, because having the wrong running shoe is the fastest way to injury, like, literally, if you've got the wrong running shoes on. I mean, we were wearing the wrong running shoes for years, jules and I. We both had Achilles problems for years, and it was only when we swapped out our trainers and then started to take magnesium tablets. Another plug you need to take magnesium and not all magnesium tablets are the same. I think those two in combination, not straight away, but those two in combination no, I was thinking one of those big tablets that we take, the Glucosamine as well. But once we found the right running trainers, I've not had Achilles problems in years and I suffered with Achilles problems for years.

So there's something well you get pretty simple, but the official thing about that is also that your trainers only have a certain lifespan, so they may look brand new, but they're probably. It's about 500 miles, I think you've got in.

I normally change about 300.

If you're marathon training, obviously you're going to train, say, january to March, quite heavily a lot of miles. So you're probably going to do maybe 250 miles during that time and that's enough. So for us, if you're marathon training, you need to have no more than about 60 miles in those trainers before the day. So, make sure you have a spare pair of red in time, but also you're not waiting to last minute by trying by the trainers you've got already because they may not have that additional anymore. So you have a version nine. It's now version 10. It's different from your previous shoe and it feels different and it may run different. So the idea is not to cause yourself injuries, as D says, by wearing old shoes. And it's because it looks good.

There's something that I'm going to have to do, because I don't have any training shoes at the moment for the marathon. You need them now.

You need to go and get them now.

I'm not a rocket-runner in Balenciaga, but what I had was my Nike, which were your everyday gym trainers that I was using to run in. So I must admit, 15 years ago yeah, it was about 15 years ago I went to the Farrock and had the gate test on the and I bought these A6, it was about £125 then I've still got them. They're great. But technology's moved on so much since then. So that same trainer is like it feels like a lead weight compared to what you can get now. But it's a perfectly good trainer. But I doubt if I would wear that. So, I need to go and do exactly what you said and go and have a gate test and see what trainer's going to be suitable for me. To complete that Now. I know I have to get two of them.

Yes, yes, so I think that about wraps it up. So thank you so much to our brilliant panellists, michelle and John, and thank you to our audience members. Thank you for contributing, thank you, and yeah, we look forward to seeing you here again next year or on the start line somewhere in the UK. Thank you guys, thank you, thank you.

Thank you.